tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post2378758434305810794..comments2024-03-10T04:29:20.044-04:00Comments on Mad Genius Club: AngerSarah A. Hoythttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-28013625211571089112011-04-14T18:23:30.871-04:002011-04-14T18:23:30.871-04:00There is a similiarity to the situation in publish...There is a similiarity to the situation in publishing to that in the various dictatorships of the M.E. The problem with living in a situation where no-one dares tell Mummar Ghaddafi etc he was acting like total ponce, and was being mind-boggling stupid when he did xyz. And humans have an amazing capacity for self-deception, and at least some of us actually like acting like a total ponce. If no one dares say 'no' you very soon come to the happy-self-delusion that you're the greatest and you're always right and everyone LOVES your antics. And then the dam is finally too full and cracks. Typically the Dictator simply continues his denial "But MY people LOVE me! These people are drugged. They're foreigners!" At best they open a sluice half a turn, but usually they just turn up the repression. And sometimes a la Iran, they succeed. But if they don't they find every single man - often most voiciferously led by their old yes-men turn viciously on them.<br /><br />I think you have a very similar situation in publishing. I doubt very much if there is one editor sitting on a panel at a con who realises that a good half of the writers in the audience would cheerfully tar and feather them. And that even their 'friends' among the writers - the ones who owe their very existence to said editor, are going to leap to their defence... until the stream runs a little faster and then they'll mostly spit in their eyes.<br /><br />The problem IS fixable - but just who is going to say - for example -to the CEO of Harper Collins - "open the sluice gates full. Your dam will have 1/3 of the water in it. But you'll have a dam." and actually get listened to?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-82723167263631939692011-04-14T10:50:32.294-04:002011-04-14T10:50:32.294-04:00Chris L,
I've had SOME very useful half-exasp...Chris L,<br /><br />I've had SOME very useful half-exasperated comments that probably crossed the professional line but were clearly kindly meant. My two favorites were "Oh, for gods' sake, learn to have your protagonists protag. You're gold otherwise." (Up till then, my protagonists tended to be Watson to some Holmes who actually did stuff. I changed that and the magazine -- Weird Tales -- has bought every story I sent them since.) The other was from an agent on my first novel "You know, you can ONLY have coincidences if they go AGAINST your character, not to help him, right?" I know this is not strictly ture, but it greatly helps with plotting.<br />The rejections I object to are the ones that could be summarized as "die, die, die, die, die."Sarah A. Hoythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-2770243907969565672011-04-14T10:35:24.082-04:002011-04-14T10:35:24.082-04:00Stephen,
More than half of my rejections are pers...Stephen,<br /><br />More than half of my rejections are personal and nice. The weird thing is that the BAD ones come from supposedly "good" editors.<br /><br />A gay friend has explained this by telling me that most authors are bottoms. They want to be beat and humiliated and if you're stern with them they think you know what you're talking about.<br /><br />Um... I must be atypical.Sarah A. Hoythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-40117818607620269472011-04-13T22:53:02.175-04:002011-04-13T22:53:02.175-04:00Like Linda, I only have experience in short form, ...Like Linda, I only have experience in short form, but they're usually okay about it. I haven't had any 'Hey loser, drop dead' feedback (yet).<br /><br />But the problem I see is that as a beginner writer I got so little feedback that I took every little comment to heart. A few one liners really threw me off my game early on.<br /><br />I had some feedback from a recent story (rejection), read by three different editors, see below:<br /><br />1. Interesting story, nice use of landscape. To my eye there are some moments that could be tightened up and I think it would be stronger if some things were directly said rather than alluded to. <br /><br />2. this is well written, but the story is surprisingly unmoving, and quite flat. Quite dull.<br /><br />3. well-written. Beginning is a bit slow<br /><br />So one helpful suggestion, one pretty useless comment, and one criticism of pace. On balance I'd say more helpful than a kick in the teeth...But goes to show that even editors for the same mag look at different angles.Chris Largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14515115955119082498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-62835843981482047932011-04-13T22:10:41.191-04:002011-04-13T22:10:41.191-04:00I have to apologize for what I'm about to say ...I have to apologize for what I'm about to say ... But posts like this keep reminding me how incredibly lucky I've been thus far (knocking on wood, and hoping the Dryad is in a good mood ...).<br /><br />The only negative experience I've had up to this point was that offensive contract you advised me on last year. The rejections I've gotten have all been uniformly pleasant in tone, and more than half have been personalized in at least some small way. <br /><br />(Although I do feel a little apprehensive about killing publications ... I published flash through a site that is now closed, I had a story in the slush-pile at Realms of Fantasy when it folded ...)Stephen Simmonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07522113936557314128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-75048246212599684132011-04-13T21:30:17.487-04:002011-04-13T21:30:17.487-04:00Hi, Sarah. I'd have to say my experience with ...Hi, Sarah. I'd have to say my experience with editors in Aus has been 99.5% good. Doesn't mean I have to be happy when they don't buy! <br /><br />But it's always those negative ones that stay with you.Chris McMahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883058490702361466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-88268014489540651732011-04-13T21:20:18.403-04:002011-04-13T21:20:18.403-04:00Chris,
Yeah, part of the issue is that they know ...Chris,<br /><br />Yeah, part of the issue is that they know we'll keep coming. I'll also say that when you have to deal with SOME authors out there -- no, seriously. I edited a small press mag once. It BARELY paid. People would find our number and call us, and yell at us BEFORE THE STORY ARRIVED because we hadn't bought -- you go a little unhinged. But again, when they're dealing with professional authors, they should be a little more cautious...Sarah A. Hoythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-18886774784324633912011-04-13T21:18:45.267-04:002011-04-13T21:18:45.267-04:00Louise,
I was about to say "You've been ...Louise,<br /><br />I was about to say "You've been lucky" but then I remembered all my contacts with Australian magazine publishers I've been extremely well treated and they're very professional, so maybe it's nation-related.<br />I do NOT object to standard rejections. Yeah, at my stage they're a crushing blow "What the... standard?" but they're much better than "we hate you, drop dead, we're going to come and shoot your dog." rejectionsSarah A. Hoythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-69668122766848437572011-04-13T19:21:42.426-04:002011-04-13T19:21:42.426-04:00I sometimes think the publishing world preys on &#...I sometimes think the publishing world preys on 'special needs' people. Writers will keep writing no matter what - will take ten kinds of crap and come back like a dog for another kick in the head. Maybe we need disability pensions?<br /><br />Anyone else would have given it away to flip pancakes or dig ditches or anything else that pays more than - nothing?<br /><br />Love that comment ' with the ink hardly dry on their fine arts diploma'. God. So true. Yet the only true qualification is to be opinionated and 'certain' to an absurd level - two traits I have always associated with people who lack intelligence. Hmmn. Go figure?Chris McMahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883058490702361466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-7253324657644240612011-04-13T19:14:33.180-04:002011-04-13T19:14:33.180-04:00I've only had one piece of bizarre feedback (a...I've only had one piece of bizarre feedback (and it was clear that the person I was pitching to was trying her best - she just hadn't read any fantasy in the last decade), and every single editor/agent/publisher I've ever had contact with took pains to be polite and helpful. <br /><br />Usually they don't dare give feedback until they know I won't bite. Personally, I've met plenty of unstable authors, so I don't blame them for sending form rejections rather than risking vitriol.<br /><br />My only beef with publisher types is when they take longer than six months to reply. Right now three of Australia's big five are at 24 months, 7 months, and 7 months with one of my books each (the latter two have only opening chapters). <br /><br />I recently emailed all three with a gentle reminder. Only one has replied. <br /><br />That's just rude.<br /><br />Louise CurtisLouise Curtishttp://twittertales.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-9325344168251081332011-04-13T18:38:28.244-04:002011-04-13T18:38:28.244-04:00Synova,
Name and shame is not an option at this p...Synova,<br /><br />Name and shame is not an option at this point. Writers are still relatively powerless, but this is the sort of change I SAID might come about in another year or two.<br /><br />And the problem is that not only do authors behave as though their work is a school assignment, editors and agents tend to imagine they're teachers.<br /><br />Is there a point to critique? Of course there is. I've talked about it ad nauseum.<br /><br />But the person who doesn't want to buy your stuff and is revolted by it is the last person from whom you want to take critique.<br /><br />Tomorrow's post over at according to Hoyt will be about writers groups and when you should take critique seriously and when you shouldn't. For instance, our writers' group started out with a member who so consistently said "to begin with this didn't work for me" that it became a comedy. We just didn't listen to anything he had to say.Sarah A. Hoythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-41373065932995305692011-04-13T15:16:00.367-04:002011-04-13T15:16:00.367-04:00Wow, Linda. You almost should frame that one.
Or ...Wow, Linda. You almost should frame that one.<br /><br />Or something.<br /><br />When I hung out with romance writers it seemed that quite a few didn't want a professional rejection, they wanted someone to gush over them a bit and let them down easy. Form letters were supposedly outright insulting, as if the editor didn't care. <br /><br />Rejections are painful, but I think that I'd rather get a form letter with a check in a box that said, "Thank you for submitting to our magazine. Your story does not meet our needs at this time."<br /><br />Sure, it doesn't mean anything at all beyond "no" but I don't really see the point of an editor having to give critical feedback until and unless the author is someone they highly desire to "send us your next story."<br /><br />And, I did notice that you didn't name names.<br /><br />I wonder if naming names wouldn't improve things. (In general terms, not specifically you, Linda.) If nothing else it would allow for someone with a good experience to say "Really? He must have been in a bad mood, I wouldn't take it personally."<br /><br />I'm all for not burning bridges and I have an aversion to gossip, which can get bad. But if agents and editors and publishers talk about authors and new writers as "hard to work with" it seems fair.<br /><br />Or perhaps a "semi" pro figures they only need to be "semi" professional?<br /><br />And honestly... "high school revenge fantasy" sounds like a best seller to me. :-)Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-73632492286971051272011-04-13T15:01:05.607-04:002011-04-13T15:01:05.607-04:00Linda,
This is what I mean by needlessly getting ...Linda,<br /><br />This is what I mean by needlessly getting writers riled up. If the publisher thought the story was that bad, then surely a standard rejection would suffice. If he thought that it showed promise and wanted to give a hand up, surely he could have said "I found that the story holds too much to moral verities and cliches, and perhaps you should consider another age group for characters." BUT honestly, if there was THAT MUCH he/she saw wrong with it but some promise it would be more professional to simply say, "Try us again with your next one" at bottom of standard rejection. Surely this submission pushed his/her buttons? I mean, honestly, this happens to everyone. BUT they don't behave as though they were in an OFFICE and that's the issue.<br />Short story editors are often the worst, though the worst of the worst rejections I ever got on those was from a semi-pro mag that called me "a xenophobic, narrow minded pain in the ass" for a story set in Portugal. My crime? My character was shocked by pastries kept atop a counter, not refrigerated, which was in fact normal for Portugal at the time and which DOES shock most Americans on first contact with it. (Rolls eyes.) This was when I found out that telling the truth was being narrow minded and also that I somehow managed to be xenophobic against my country of origin. Oh, yeah, and also that that editor was a narrow minded pain in the behind and had zero impulse control.Sarah A. Hoythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-32679567882218877432011-04-13T14:55:41.991-04:002011-04-13T14:55:41.991-04:00Pam,
Now, now, we're not squirrels!Pam,<br /><br />Now, now, we're not squirrels!Sarah A. Hoythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-9692072491170389132011-04-13T14:14:40.041-04:002011-04-13T14:14:40.041-04:00Whoops, sorry Laurell, missed the third "l&qu...Whoops, sorry Laurell, missed the third "l" in the above post.<br /><br />LindaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-15964713505693998312011-04-13T14:10:44.797-04:002011-04-13T14:10:44.797-04:00I only have experience in the short story field, b...I only have experience in the short story field, but even now, there's one respected semi-pro publication to whom I will never submit again. I get angry everytime I think about it. The rejection called my submission "clumsy, preachy, cliched high-school revenge fantasy."<br /><br />Where does the editor get off calling a cleanly-formatted and typed, guidelines-following, grammarly-correct submission from someone who has two pro credits already under their belt? Not that the pro credits mean a thing to the merits of this story except to say that I do know how to put a sentence or two together and do understand the structure of a short story.<br /><br />In fact, who does he think he is to respond to anyone's submission that way? Clearly, IMO someone who is riding high on a power trip and a mean person at that. Even if the editor thought that, clearly it could've been phrased better. I've been told since then by other writers that these editors are rude, yet they continue to succeed in the field. Why would writers do this to themselves? I have often reached "rejection burn-out" only to rally weeks later.<br /><br />That rejection might be enough to ruin a lesser-armored writer's ego. But not me. I continue to submit to other publications because most of them are fine to work with. I can handle rejection (even though I'm in the midst of a "rejection burn-out" phase, I know the rally is coming), but there's no need to put up with crap from editors, short story editors anyway since I don't personally know much about novel editors. I can see if a novel editor is the link to your bread and butter that you would put up with more.<br /><br />But, I took the long way around to say that I agree. Editors and publishers owe their writers human decency and respect, especially if those writers are making the effort to turn in manuscripts that make it easier for them to do their jobs. We're not all great writers, but we may be one day.<br /><br />Laurel Hamilton wrote in one of her short story collections that editors don't get second chances with her. One did her wrong as she was coming up, and to this day, she won't allow them to publish her. I might not ever be a Laurel Hamilton, but the next writer might be.<br /><br />As a publisher/editor, why spit in your own soup?<br /><br />LindaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-24268995186278961542011-04-13T09:30:17.792-04:002011-04-13T09:30:17.792-04:00". . .The Authors' eyes gleamed red in th...". . .The Authors' eyes gleamed red in the torch light as they closed in on the terrified publishers . . . "MataPamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11128604732495114033noreply@blogger.com