tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post2959433976356409370..comments2024-03-10T04:29:20.044-04:00Comments on Mad Genius Club: Just a conventional thing.Sarah A. Hoythttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-74655983108399840372010-10-12T09:20:12.395-04:002010-10-12T09:20:12.395-04:00Dave, thanks for a great post -- even if you did g...Dave, thanks for a great post -- even if you did give me nightmares of talking cabbages and broccoli. What's next? Sentient brussle sprouts? [shudder]<br /><br />Actually, you reinforced one of the first things I tell new writers and that's that they have to read. They have to read their genre and, imo, they need to read outside their genre as well since those genre lines are blurring now. I've had to explain, on more than one occasion, that there are few, if any, "original" ideas now. The originality comes in how you deal with the plot device. And don't get me started on POV. <br /><br />Any way, now that I've been haunted by intelligent veggies, I'll go find coffee and get back to editing.Amanda Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02927312739323222344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-39771836747164068822010-10-12T06:30:02.018-04:002010-10-12T06:30:02.018-04:00Brendan, heh, Thank you. The road to success is at...Brendan, heh, Thank you. The road to success is at last clear. A moose head... hmm do thing a wallaby head will do? ;-)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-13620582820496504082010-10-12T06:28:22.799-04:002010-10-12T06:28:22.799-04:00Synova it's possible to do it well so your rea...Synova it's possible to do it well so your reader doesn't hate you. But it is making life hard for yourself. Which when you're new or less than great (ergo, moi) is not always too clever ;-).<br /><br />I think you've prompted me to do the next post on fore-shadowing. ThanksAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-69123565307309438882010-10-12T06:25:45.456-04:002010-10-12T06:25:45.456-04:00Chris Mc - at least two authors I can think of do ...Chris Mc - at least two authors I can think of do break that one - but both are actually quite dated. Both good writers. (murder mystery)<br />It's possible, just harder to do well.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-76010446772755487202010-10-12T00:42:28.127-04:002010-10-12T00:42:28.127-04:00RJ,
Your comment about needing to immerse yoursel...RJ,<br /><br />Your comment about needing to immerse yourself in the genre reminded me of the Aurialis SF Hall of Fame entrant <a href="http://www.aurealis.com.au/archives.php?show=6&type=2" rel="nofollow"> Otto Greenbach</a>.Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12290731721638936110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-87662243366693546732010-10-12T00:11:18.929-04:002010-10-12T00:11:18.929-04:00I don't think that it matters to start a scien...I don't think that it matters to start a science fiction story out in a fantasy type of setting if that's actually the setting it's in. The magic in the Liaden Universe doesn't bother me at all, for example, because it flows at least somewhat logically from the world that's been created. <br /><br />But, IIRC, there is usually some element of otherness introduced early on, a suggested mystery, or clue to expect something later, so when it happens it's not a case of being jerked in an unexpected direction.<br /><br />Like the mermaid romance... after the fact it seemed possible that the rainy weather was supposed to be a clue that her moods made the weather change. But without, say, the opening paragraphs being a conversation with a co-worker jokingly accusing her of causing the weather with her blue moods rather than the other way around, the reader wasn't given notice to notice what the weather was doing.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-31013435427894029762010-10-11T23:41:22.858-04:002010-10-11T23:41:22.858-04:00Great post, Dave. I loved the uplift books, and re...Great post, Dave. I loved the uplift books, and remeber the talking broccoli with great fondness:)<br /><br />Just talking about PoV, I have recently read a series that breaks that rule occaisonally and get away with it. Its John Flanagan's Ranger's Apprentice books. Very well done - he hit the characters perfectly in book one IMO. <br /><br />One think I noticed was that he would drift out of PoV for the odd paragraph, strangely it worked fine & actually had the benefit of economy. Now the reason its there to begin with? It could actually by Flanagan's lack of experience - it is a common newbit thing. Even so, the books are excellent YA.Chris McMahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883058490702361466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-47167586106481608822010-10-11T22:26:36.587-04:002010-10-11T22:26:36.587-04:00In the story The Women of Nell Gwynne's Kage B...In the story <i>The Women of Nell Gwynne's</i> Kage Baker broke the rule by spending the first few sections introducing one character and then turning the story into an ensemble piece. No matter how good the story, I couldn't help feeling gypped. I felt I was promised a heroine but wound up following a person who wasn't that important.Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12290731721638936110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-32720385175339245662010-10-11T20:13:06.707-04:002010-10-11T20:13:06.707-04:00Kate The - maguffin thing... and then people think...Kate The - maguffin thing... and then people think 'more is better'<br />gah.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-81358648024006258352010-10-11T19:48:30.390-04:002010-10-11T19:48:30.390-04:00Hmmm, a 'slug gun', eh? It does have a cer...Hmmm, a 'slug gun', eh? It does have a certain appeal to me in a shoot-the-bad-guy-and-gross-out-your-kid-sister sort of way. And it does present some interesting limitations, like the slime trail leading right back to the shooter in a variation on the "tracers work both ways" theme. Mind you, it also provide some interesting literary possibilities: what if it's the hero's only weapon and he has to chase the villain into a salt mine?<br /><br />It definitely has potential! (Perhaps I've been reading too much "Schlock Mercenary" lately...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-52412754265296439772010-10-11T19:35:14.225-04:002010-10-11T19:35:14.225-04:00Oh Rowena, shudder. Exactly.Oh Rowena, shudder. Exactly.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-90063676379301553492010-10-11T19:33:48.877-04:002010-10-11T19:33:48.877-04:00But Bob, what about a 'slug gun' for shoot...But Bob, what about a 'slug gun' for shooting Synova's slugs? Surely that is sf enough?<br /><br />yes sf does have the sense of wonderAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-14224057415347976422010-10-11T19:22:52.172-04:002010-10-11T19:22:52.172-04:00chuckle - I like the giant slug monsters. I have t...chuckle - I like the giant slug monsters. I have the mental image of the brussel-sprout calibre handgun...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-57428795995470438042010-10-11T19:17:23.290-04:002010-10-11T19:17:23.290-04:00Good point, Synova (even though I broke the rule m...Good point, Synova (even though I broke the rule myself - The Forlorn starts apparently as fantasy but is actually sf, but the cover did 'say' sf) readers have expectations, and when these are wrong or not fulfilled you'd better have a great story trapping them or they'll hate you for it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-52910561147137541792010-10-11T18:58:33.050-04:002010-10-11T18:58:33.050-04:00And that's extremely important, especially wit...And that's extremely important, especially with SF: you need to familiarize yourself with the genre. Heck, you need to <i>immerse</i> yourself in the genre and read as widely as possible. Having seen <i>Independence Day</i> 75 times and owning the complete <i>Matrix</i> trilogy just doesn't cut it. In fact, that's the worst thing you can do because the movies are <i>at least</i> a decade behind the books. Not only that, but the audience expects a lot more out of written SF than they do from film or TV SF; we've been so used and abused by film and TV offerings (especially TV) that most of us are so bloody grateful for what little crumbs Hollywood and the networks deign to throw us that we're willing to overlook and outright forgive a whole lot.<br /><br />Not so for written SF. There's over a century's worth of written SF to draw upon, with some seriously heavy hitters in the mix. So if you can't tell Frank Herbert from Robert Heinlein, or are wondering who that "Isaac Asi-something guy" is, you need to bone up :-DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-45901344604059148062010-10-11T18:37:32.897-04:002010-10-11T18:37:32.897-04:00RJ - Yes, it is the sense of wonder that sets SF a...RJ - Yes, it is the sense of wonder that sets SF apart.<br /><br />Dave, I was doing a manuscript appraisal for someone who didn't read much SF. (Sigh) It was near future and he had his character explain to a cabbie what string theory was.<br /><br />I told him your average SF reader would be insulted. I suggested he read a couple of current SF authors to show how sophisticated the audience is and what is assumed knowledge. And I suggested if he liked explaining things, he write for 10 -12 year olds, write the kind of books that introduce science concepts. There's a place for these.Rowena Cory Daniellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08995983965583233914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-90943608242488046502010-10-11T18:27:31.161-04:002010-10-11T18:27:31.161-04:00Well, if I understand correctly, broccoli, like ca...Well, if I understand correctly, broccoli, like cauliflower (mmmm... breaded cauliflower with cheese sauce...) is a type of cabbage, so I guess that's technically correct if you want to split hairs.<br /><br />As for squids in space... actually been tinkering with something along those lines.<br /><br />Robert Heinlein came up with what I consider the quintessential SF convention -- "the door dilated" -- the use of a simple phrase that makes it absolutely, unequivocally clear that you reading a story set in the future.<br /><br />A couple other conventions: the blaster and the death ray. Doesn't really go into the physics of them, but you know you don't want to be on the receiving end of one!<br /><br />"He pulled out a .45 and pointed it at me..." Could be a western, a detective story, or even a modern military technothriller -- possibly even a science fiction story. But there's definitely some ambiguity there.<br /><br />"He pulled out a blaster and pointed it at me..." Clearly a science fiction story.<br /><br />Though, in my opinion, I think what truly sets the SF genre apart from all the others is the innate sense of wonder. You don't get any sense of wonder reading some historical adventure -- if you've studied the history, you have a general idea what's going to happen, you're just waiting to find out how it shakes out for the characters. You might get an entertaining plot out of the deal, but there's no sense of wonder about it. Now, in an out-an-out SF story, everything's on the table, the author's shuffling the deck, and there's going to be a lot of wild cards in the mix. It's anyone's game. And if you're really lucky, you just might get to see some exploding babes and scantily-clad spaceships in the bargain!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-59717650772886110722010-10-11T17:55:41.685-04:002010-10-11T17:55:41.685-04:00Clues about the environment and social setting are...Clues about the environment and social setting are generally preferred over the multiple-page info-dump. Whether that's because SF/F readers like to tease out the answers or because non-SF/F readers don't need to cue in the environment etc I don't know. <br /><br />POV-hopping is thoroughly disliked. If you're going to change heads, do so after the scene break.<br /><br />A biggie here - do not break the basic laws of the Universe. There might be a macguffin or some unobtainium (Ooh, look! Jargon!), but everything else had better work or readers feel very cheated.<br /><br />Another big one - one macguffin per book/story. If there's faster than light travel, don't include anything else that can't be explained as a possible extrapolation from current knowledge. Of course, the further you get from now, the more extrapolatey your extrapolation gets until you're strapping it on... *ahem*. <br /><br />Oh, yes. Alien species do not necessarily run around naked. Nor do they necessarily suffer from a complete absence of visible genitalia no matter how big their heads are.<br /><br />I'm not aware of talking vegetables of any flavor (or lack thereof), unless you go visiting fantasy and run into an ent or two. As for space squids, they only time I've seen them is when the author is doing a deliberate "look! Space squids!" play on the ideas mundanes have (and the author who does this usually <i>does</i> think of everyone else as "mundanes")Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-90982203558489589692010-10-11T17:48:02.158-04:002010-10-11T17:48:02.158-04:00It's not squid, but one of my earliest attempt...It's not squid, but one of my earliest attempts at writing and world building had Giant Alien Slug Monsters!<br /><br />No cabbages.<br /><br />;-)<br /><br />Although... now I'm wondering... If cabbages could talk, how would they talk and what would they say? Perhaps it would be cooperative between cabbage and cabbage worms... all that effort to chew out those glyphs and what do we do? We powder them.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-19732744883232069072010-10-11T17:47:18.250-04:002010-10-11T17:47:18.250-04:00Good point in clueing in the reader as to what sor...Good point in clueing in the reader as to what sort of SciFi/Fantasy/Spec Fic they've got their hands on, very early in the book.<br /><br />Early clues as to Good Guy/Bad Guy, and foreshadowing the story problem are probably useful as well.<br /><br />For longer works, anyway. Flash fiction has its own rules.MataPamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11128604732495114033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-25065764310284045972010-10-11T17:43:10.481-04:002010-10-11T17:43:10.481-04:00Chris L - It's not that I don't use jargon...Chris L - It's not that I don't use jargon. I think it is valuable, carries a lot to regular speculative fiction readers. But I do try to use the right jargon (that in common use - FTL rather that ESL - exceeds speed of light (or English second language:-)) or explain or use in a context which explains the first time they're used.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-58110826764278304122010-10-11T17:40:36.662-04:002010-10-11T17:40:36.662-04:00Speaking of Waldos... Steve Miller had a character...Speaking of Waldos... Steve Miller had a character use his "third hand" early on in _Balance of Trade_ and I swear I read that book three times before I asked my husband if I was right in assuming that the person in question did not, in fact, have three hands.<br /><br />Conventions for SF and not rules but clues so that the reader knows what interpretive paradigm to employ? I think I'd include things like including something magical, technological, alien or otherwise clue-worthy on the first page, the sooner the better. (I read a romance that ended up having mermaids/men in it, and nothing unnatural happened for the first 2/3rds of the book. At that point, I actually got sort of mad.)<br /><br />There are the mechanical things such as breaking up the words on the page, not reusing the same word right away unless it's on purpose or "said", avoiding having too much uniformity of word, sentence, or paragraph length, avoiding alliteration unless it's on purpose. That sort of thing.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-7069024032179358602010-10-11T17:32:13.439-04:002010-10-11T17:32:13.439-04:00Now I come to think of it, I think you're righ...Now I come to think of it, I think you're right - on both counts.Chris Largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14515115955119082498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-13982865788904436662010-10-11T17:26:02.663-04:002010-10-11T17:26:02.663-04:00Chris L -- I have a feeling that Rankin tended tow...Chris L -- I have a feeling that Rankin tended toward brussel sprouts ;-) (which are prefectly possible villians as far as I am concerned) Still, it's a stereotype that this woman is desperately perpetuating. Some stereotypes have a grain of truth in them... this one has a two kilo lump of ignorance.<br /><br />Most spec fic readers do indeed comprehend the jargon. That - unfortunately - can make the genre exculsive (I want all nice boys and girls to read. I want all nasty ones to read too.) After all fuberite means something to geologists (both about the rock and the geological history of the area) but if you want others to follow you have to explain.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-33959875589360436522010-10-11T17:12:21.122-04:002010-10-11T17:12:21.122-04:00good point on the conclusions, matapamgood point on the conclusions, matapamAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315551718688781746noreply@blogger.com