tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post5316371216827458149..comments2024-03-10T04:29:20.044-04:00Comments on Mad Genius Club: Alas, poor SF, it suffers from premature mourningSarah A. Hoythttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-30093895673991169542010-10-30T13:30:01.653-04:002010-10-30T13:30:01.653-04:00Synova,
Absolutely. One quick thumbnail example i...Synova,<br /><br />Absolutely. One quick thumbnail example is that world-wide, coal based energy probably kills more people every year than have ever been killed by nuclear energy (including Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Chernobyl). But Nuclear is Evil, so we can't do that.<br /><br />IMO no technology is intrinsically evil. It's all in how it's used.Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-776313197289146582010-10-29T20:28:49.729-04:002010-10-29T20:28:49.729-04:00"So, those of us who've put a lot more di..."<i>So, those of us who've put a lot more distance between us and our poop are much more evil than those of us who haven't.</i>"<br /><br />I think this might be the key sentence explaining how current PC is directly connected to the death of "gosh-wow" and ends up at dystopia.<br /><br />It's not that we live in the technological future...<br /><br />It's that people are bad, children are bad, technology is bad, big business is bad, nuclear power is bad but nuclear accelerators are worse, power is bad, energy is bad, genetic engineering is bad, building things simply because they are glorious is very bad.<br /><br />We've turned into stogy old aunts who feel it their duty in life to keep everyone grounded in reality the moment they become unseemingly optimistic.<br /><br />Yes, the economics of Star Trek was a sort of stupidity that could only be eclipsed by the Prime Directive's truly transcendent stupidity, but the original Star Trek Universe was optimistic. <br /><br />Are people viewed as creative forces in the world or as parasites; as consumers rather than producers? Does a child born hold the universe of possibilities within, or the universe's destruction?<br /><br />PC by it's nature puts some thoughts and explorations off limits. But presently PC is not only that, but enforces that list of what we aren't allowed to celebrate. Certainly we aren't allowed to celebrate human expansion.<br /><br />I suppose there is a way to consider the right to be anti-science, but the left is as well. And I don't mean to get political but it's easy to see how something like new earth creationism is anti-science and far less easy to see how the politics around global warming or stem cell research is anti-science. Global warming because of the anti-human, anti-technology assumptions that accompany any talk about solutions, and embryonic stem cell research because of the very careful way that the creative power of cloning is avoided. It's the elephant in the room. If we're constrained to view the contents of the lab dish in a particular acceptable way it is anti-science. We need to be able to see what is really there.<br /><br />If distance between us and poop is seen as good rather than bad, a whole lot of possibilities open up in real life and in science fiction too.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-37891233586470161232010-10-29T20:26:10.919-04:002010-10-29T20:26:10.919-04:00Lin,
Maybe I need a tinfoil hat too, but I don...Lin,<br /><br />Maybe I need a tinfoil hat too, but I don't think you're being excessively cynical. There's a whole lot of things in the whole system that utterly reek - starting with the interesting tidbit that returns don't necessarily have to be actually <i>returned</i>. Hell, the stores don't even have to provide evidence that they still have the book, and they can still get their money back for "returning" it.<br /><br />(You can find that little gem buried somewhere in this site: http://www.authorslawyer.com/savage/journal.shtml - which is, BTW, a very eye-opening read, and I'm rather sad it appears to have been abandoned)Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-3768721657207031262010-10-29T19:52:33.981-04:002010-10-29T19:52:33.981-04:00Sarah, Matapam, I agree with your assessments. Th...Sarah, Matapam, I agree with your assessments. There's something *wrong* with the stories that are being purchased / published at the moment.<br /><br />Meanwhile, there is an entire *universe* of people *dying* to get their hands on stories about strong main characters who help bring about a better future. But the only stories that are even remotely feeding into this, IMHO, are MilSF. Which I do enjoy reading! <br /><br />But Neitzsche and nihilsm seem to have taken over the mental processes of anybody who is actually publishing books. (Again, Baen excepted!) The "anti-hero" of the 60s has *become* the hero, today, and nobody has even seen that she's killed off the actual hero and is dressed up in the heroes (illfitting!) clothes.<br /><br />What to do about it? Wait until the present set of publishers drop dead from terminal enui? I think that "somebody" is also manipulating sales numbers (much easier to do now, unfortunately, in the day of ebooks) to down-play the actual number of people *buying* "good old SF."<br /><br />OTOH, I may be having an attack of cynicism.<br /><br />LinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-12315471917087448552010-10-29T18:12:10.965-04:002010-10-29T18:12:10.965-04:00Matapam,
THANK you! I'm so bad at examples an...Matapam,<br /><br />THANK you! I'm <i>so</i> bad at examples and explaining when it's something I understand at somewhere below conscious level (This used to piss my math teachers off no end, I might add).Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-70057574159838527382010-10-29T12:53:59.479-04:002010-10-29T12:53:59.479-04:00Kate, all he wants is a couple of recomendations o...Kate, all he wants is a couple of recomendations of books, not a masters thesis.<br /><br />I've been so immersed in reading slush that I haven't been reading much published work except a few favorite writers, and I'm way behind on them.<br /><br />So I'll cheat and use the example of the movie Avatar. Right, It's SF because it's on another planet and has cool tech. It's PC because the corporations and the military are Evil. Total Sociopathic killers. And it's the worst of the Liberal Elitism, because "One of Us" (More PC: A handicapped person. A ordinary soldier wouldn't do.) has to have an epiphamy and become the leader and savior "our little blue brothers" aren't capable of supplying themselves.<br /><br />It's popular because it's a movie and it's got flashy effects. As a book? Liberal editors might have bought it (I think editorial buying, not public buying is what Sarah means in her post about "books with strong male leads not being bought") but I doubt it would have sold well to the general SF reading public. Those poor sales figures would have continued the downward spiral "SF is dying" trend that editors see, and many of us think they are instead creating.<br /><br />When we say "destroying SF" what we mean is that poor buying decisions by the publishers are pushing books that don't appeal to most SF readers. We're saying the loss of older customers is not balanced by the number of young readers attracted by "New Wave" or "PC" or whatever you wish to call it. (If you count Sparkly Vampires stories as SF, we're wrong.)<br /><br />So we read "Techno-thrillers" or Terry Prachett. MilSF and approach Space Opera cautiously, to avoid wasting our money on somthing we won't finish. Urban Fantasy (with guns) attracts hard SF readers, it's basicly an Alien invasion sans space ships, and with the possibility that you could become one of them.<br /><br />I'm not one of the people declaring SF dead. I'm not sure if the people doing so are Liberals who are hoping they're right, or depressed Rednecks having trouble finding a decent read.<br /><br />In any case, the e-book market is in the process of removing the filter of editorial approval. All the readers need to do is wade into the dreck to find the diamonds. Or wait until some group forms the "Explording Spaceships Press" and buys their recommendations.MataPamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11128604732495114033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-64206473342772257662010-10-29T11:07:56.995-04:002010-10-29T11:07:56.995-04:00Ben,
I'm not going into massive evidence dump...Ben,<br /><br />I'm not going into massive evidence dumps here. It's boring.<br /><br />However, consider this: PC is antithetical to creative, adventurous thought (As witness the penalties imposed on anyone who breaks ranks). SF is a genre built on creative adventurous thought.<br /><br />You shouldn't NEED evidence to reach the obvious conclusion here. If you do need evidence, I can't help you.Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-40697798028285188482010-10-29T10:45:21.730-04:002010-10-29T10:45:21.730-04:00Sarah, boys read. At least my Aspie 20-year-old s...Sarah, boys read. At least my Aspie 20-year-old son does. But he doesn't read current American-published SF, for pretty much the reasons you delinieated. He does read manga though. Voraciously. And, <i>quelle surprise!</i>, the manga is rife with strong young male characters he can daydream about "being when he grows up" ...Stephen Simmonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07522113936557314128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-14767624191765974722010-10-29T09:38:04.713-04:002010-10-29T09:38:04.713-04:00Brendan, thank you for understanding. I know it w...Brendan, thank you for understanding. I know it wasn't your intent but I wanted to head the topic off before it had a chance to get out of hand. Please, continue commenting. You add to the conversation and we do look forward to what you have to say.Amanda Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02927312739323222344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-59282170921562917352010-10-29T09:25:56.255-04:002010-10-29T09:25:56.255-04:00Bull... pockey on "we're living in sf&quo...Bull... pockey on "we're living in sf" -- yeah, for us. Not for our kids. But for MY parents I lived in SF and I devoured the stuff.<br /><br />Look instead at what we're trying to sell these kids on. It started in the eighties with the "rusty future" SF. I don't know who in heck thought this was attractive. Since then we have had preachy SF, despondent SF and SF that concentrates on the mechanics so far only my younger kid enjoys it.<br /><br />The TV and movie SF has only sometimes followed this (and the preachy one had cool tech to keep it amazing) so it still thrives.<br /><br />Competing entertainment forms are never a problem UNLESS you're falling behind. TV didn't kill radio (trust me, it was still a major form of entertainment in Portugal, twenty years after the arrival of TV) and TV didn't kill the movies. And while TV audience is now more distributed, it's probably larger.<br /><br />On the boys prefer games to books, that IS PC incarnate. When is the last time you read an sf adventure (or even fantasy adventure) book with a MALE main character who is someone a teen can aspire to being? Right. Exactly. I found myself several times, male heroic leads -- particularly young -- DO NOT get bought. Because "Boys don't read." Well, no. why should they when they're depicted as stupid and evil.<br /><br />My boys saw through this at six.Sarah A. Hoythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17478124095732219352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-83113860890833765252010-10-29T09:15:54.830-04:002010-10-29T09:15:54.830-04:00Alright... this will be my last post, since I didn...Alright... this will be my last post, since I didn't intend to start spewing any vitriol, and I think I may have made use of some unsensitive sentences earlier on.<br /><br />Nonetheless, my initial caveat (and it be but a caveat, since Kate and I are merely two platoons skirmishing on the same side in the midst of a war... if you like bad metaphors) remains the same: "I don't get the PC-equals-bad-SF correlation."<br /><br />I expect everyone involved in this discussion is to some degree an empiricist, and in commenting my main goal was to get an example: "Read X by Y, and you will see 1) PC, and 2) bad SF," thus validating Kate's initial posting. <br /><br />But until someone can offer that, I don't believe this conversation is in the vein of some kind of courageous, individualistic exploration of ideas. As it stands, the argument "PC is ruining SF" is no better than the shut-down of "un-PC" authors (like Elizabeth Moon), because you're shutting down the opposite side without examples or good reason or thoughts that are shareable - just like what happened to Moon (well, okay... <i>more or less</i> like what happened to Moon, but the distinctions are irrelevant since both represent <i>a priori</i> dismissal and I'm looking for <i>a posteriori</i> conclusions).<br /><br />You offer no examples of the phenomenon you discuss here. If you wish to excuse that by saying, "I would never read that," how did you discover the phenomenon? How are you aware of it? How can you be certain of it? You have to share these proofs with me to get my sympathetic agreement.<br /><br />Examples! We need 'em.<br /><br /><i>For science's sake</i>.<br /><br />Peace out.<br /><br />-bnBen Godbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15450579203940093977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-601846197087007782010-10-29T08:41:31.469-04:002010-10-29T08:41:31.469-04:00Appologies Amanda, it wasn't my intent to be p...Appologies Amanda, it wasn't my intent to be political. I deleted the offending post.Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12290731721638936110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-6467729270140505982010-10-29T08:14:36.723-04:002010-10-29T08:14:36.723-04:00Brendan, I'm going to start with the warning t...Brendan, I'm going to start with the warning that I am just now up and have had a grand total of 2 sips of coffee. That puts my threshold for anything at a very low point. One of our rules here is that we can skirt politics but we do not, I repeat do NOT, go over the line. You have here. I know you're trying to make a point but let's keep this conversation more aimed to how political correctness -- and you know what I mean -- affects writing and not go straight into the miasma of politics (especially since you have attributed comments to someone without giving citation).Amanda Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02927312739323222344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-13170998157947195112010-10-28T22:37:35.248-04:002010-10-28T22:37:35.248-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12290731721638936110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-176499910155284052010-10-28T21:55:49.948-04:002010-10-28T21:55:49.948-04:00Stephen,
Heinlein predicted a lot of things. He f...Stephen,<br /><br />Heinlein predicted a lot of things. He forced people to think. He posed uncomfortable questions and then used - GASP - logic to justify his answers.<br /><br />Having seen the self-proclaimed elite decry logic as the whole collection of PC "-ist"s and then some, you can imagine how happy that made them.Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-33015043487905341072010-10-28T21:53:22.464-04:002010-10-28T21:53:22.464-04:00Brendan,
Um. I'm afraid you just killed any a...Brendan,<br /><br />Um. I'm afraid you just killed any admiration I might have had for David Brin. If he thinks the bigger threat is on the right side of the spectrum, he's not looking properly.<br /><br />Yes, I have the data to support this statement. Yes, I can back it up with large numbers of examples. No, I am not going to do so here. I'm just going to give you the shortest possible version thereof: far-right attacks on science tend to be overt. PC kills it before it can get far enough to <i>attract</i> overt attacks.<br /><br />Give me the outright hostility over the generations of brain-dulled overgrown children who could have been scientists if their interest in anything outside self-gratification hadn't been killed by PC.Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-11317576924779170932010-10-28T21:52:44.028-04:002010-10-28T21:52:44.028-04:00Kate -- at the risk of praising Heinlein in the pr...Kate -- at the risk of praising Heinlein in the presence of hi enemies ... "Glory Road". He even predicted THIS. Think about how Oscar felt in Hew Wisdom's world ...Stephen Simmonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07522113936557314128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-50035444582520425562010-10-28T21:46:42.010-04:002010-10-28T21:46:42.010-04:00Stephen,
Absolutely. Box the individualism off, k...Stephen,<br /><br />Absolutely. Box the individualism off, keep it in a nice safe genre label where everything is "primitive" anyway so you expect that crude stuff to happen, but don't ever let anyone get the idea it might apply to - horrors! - real life.<br /><br />Real life is supposed to suck, unless you belong to the elite who make the decisions. <br /><br />Um. Maybe I should put the sarcasm bulldozer away?Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-77322461278459269472010-10-28T21:43:09.795-04:002010-10-28T21:43:09.795-04:00Chris L
I think your last sentence sums it up bea...Chris L<br /><br />I think your last sentence sums it up beautifully. We need it in big font, everywhere.<br /><br />"PC makes people stupid, and stupid people don't read SF". <br /><br />Thank you.Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-52239573230867012112010-10-28T21:41:43.499-04:002010-10-28T21:41:43.499-04:00graywave,
You know, in the 1950s people were talk...graywave,<br /><br />You know, in the 1950s people were talking about what a wonderfully futuristic world it was. There were ads about the latest technology and how it could transform your life. That didn't kill SF.<br /><br />Now though, PC has dumbed down too many people, and convinced the ones who are capable of independent, creative thought that they don't <i>want</i> to do that because it's dangerous. It's made publishers timid and send marketing into a death spiral of ever-tighter market labels.<br /><br />There's <i>always</i> been genre-bending fiction. There's always been slipstream. Was Gene Wolfe's New Urth series fantasy or SF? You tell me. It's an obvious example where sufficiently advanced science effectively <i>is</i> magic.<br /><br />Could Gene Wolfe's New Urth series get published today. Hell no.<br /><br />THAT is what PC has done to the industry.Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-41146593995162668602010-10-28T21:32:12.259-04:002010-10-28T21:32:12.259-04:00Ben,
I guess I'm not putting this clearly. Th...Ben,<br /><br />I guess I'm not putting this clearly. The PC assumptions underlying too much modern SF gives me the horrors. Same with modern fantasy. These probably aren't even things the writers in question are aware of - they're too deeply buried for that, especially when the piece doesn't have much if any layering to it. Peaceful, idyllic, enlightened matriarchies in lush farmland that's right beside aggressive and evil male barbarians who inhabit a desert and mistreat their women. Sex without emotional consequence (maybe it works that way for men. It doesn't for women.) Traditionally "feminine" traits being bad if they lead to a traditionally feminine life, but traditionally male traits being good only when exhibited by a female. The assumption that the people in charge must know better than the rest (or that the AI in charge must know better). <br /><br />I see that view in a book, that book and author are gone. Oh, and every time I"ve seen it, I've found the book unsatisfying - and other people I've talked to have also found it unsatisfying even if they couldn't nail down why.<br /><br />I can't speak to your examples because I find that particular author unreadable.Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-67661013007218156392010-10-28T21:21:21.315-04:002010-10-28T21:21:21.315-04:00Matapam,
I'd agree with you there - desire, i...Matapam,<br /><br />I'd agree with you there - desire, in the sense of longing for something, is a big driver of what people read. I suspect another big driver is confirmation that things will work out no matter how bleak it might seem now. Romance certainly fulfills that one, and old-style SF - hell, even dystopian SF - does too. As Harlan Ellison puts it, by definition, SF includes humanity surviving at least to whenever the story is set.<br /><br />The Western isn't dead? Oh GOOD! I haven't seen any in bookstores in forever. The basic self-reliance and taking responsibility for cleaning up messes in most of the westerns I've read is a good thing.Kate Paulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02034983693134240754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-22320309215111708812010-10-28T21:04:48.785-04:002010-10-28T21:04:48.785-04:00Stephen,
What you describe isn't necessarily ...Stephen,<br /><br />What you describe isn't necessarily PCism but anti-intellectualism or exceptionalism. This is a constant theme of Dr. Brin's over on his website <a href="http://davidbrin.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Contrary Brin</a>. He takes pot-shots at the far right and left but is worried much more about the right at the moment as they seem to be leading a push against experts and science.Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12290731721638936110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-37992534484471320822010-10-28T20:49:24.864-04:002010-10-28T20:49:24.864-04:00Kate, there's yet another aspect of PC that is...Kate, there's yet another aspect of PC that is utter poison to SF, and I think is also the reason so many people are so eager to show SF the door.<br /><br />SF, at least the good stuff, is about <i><b>individuals</b></i>. And not just any individuals, but remarkable individuals. Overcoming things, changing the world. Making a difference. Being just about as un-PC as it is possible to be, because they aren't being "equal to everybody else", and they aren't sitting down, shutting up, and letting the wise and benevolent Intellectual Aristocracy run their lives.<br /><br />Those people are only allowed to exist in fantasy, something clearly labeled on the genre-cover, "not-even-remotely-real-and never-could-be". SF, the genre of "what if", the genre that exists on the edges of the real world, and from which a number of the older stories actually have come true? Nope-nope-nope, can't allow heroes like THAT to venture so close ...Stephen Simmonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07522113936557314128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4940224740718934743.post-67784511456970882342010-10-28T20:25:12.788-04:002010-10-28T20:25:12.788-04:00Ben, I think you should read more deeply into Brin...Ben, I think you should read more deeply into Brin's Uplift universe. There is very little PC about most races uplift of client species. The Galactic Institutions are there to put rules in place to stop species ripping each other apart in a pan-galatic conflict, and the newly uplifted species(which can be altered to become speciallised technicians) spend millennia in bondage to their uplifting parents.<br /><br />In Brightness Reef the six species form an accord and peace based on the idea that they are sharing the planet while they devolve back into pre-sapient species("Very" back to nature).Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12290731721638936110noreply@blogger.com